Boating business: What’s the current situation?
On the Friday of the Civic Holiday Weekend my family and I drove down to Amherstburg for the day. We went to Duffy’s for dinner figuring it would be nice to sit in the dinning room and look at the river and the boats in the marina.
The perch was great, the river view picturesque and the marina…
I asked our server about the nearly empty marina and she said that its been like that for most of the summer. On the heels of our mayors announcement to develop a marina in our downtown I felt that I should find out what the state of the boating industry is along the Detroit River.
In a very meticulous and scientific method, I got out the yellow pages, looked up marinas and started calling around to see if anyone would talk to a “blogger”. The following is a summary of my conversations. I asked each person about their operation, how they would describe their business’ activity over the past four or five years, how it has been this year in particular and what they thought of the idea of a marina in downtown Windsor. I’m not going to editorialize, read on and judge for yourself.
Colchester Marina
Manager Jay Affleck runs this 120 slip, deep water marina along the North shore of Lake Erie. For the last two years that he has been in charge the marina has had a waiting list for berths. This year there are twenty slips available. In the past this facility has not been able to cater to transient boaters other than providing fuel because of the marina being booked up. This year he has been able to take-in day trippers and over night boats.
Rochester Place Golf and R.V. Resort
First year general manager Dan Ardley could not comment much on the business’ past except to offer that in 2007 around 60 of the 100 boat wells were rented and this year that number has dropped to 48.
Deerbrook Marina
Deerbrook is a “fishing marina” on Lake St. Clair at the mouth of the Ruscomb River. Business there is going well but is dedicated to smaller boats and sport fishing. Linda Brochu the manager is an avid boater and has travelled by boat for years. When asked about the proposal for the City Centre West lands including a marina she was very positive. She felt it would create a destination for boaters that does not exist. Linda felt that the marina should be dedicated to transient boaters with amenities like electric hook-ups, fuel, showers and laundry facillities.
Sandbar Restaraunt and Puce River Harbour
Robert Troupe owns and operates a waterside restaraunt/tavern and a marina at the mouth of the Puce River. The marina has 70 slips and they are all full for 2008. The Sandbar has dockage for 35 boats coming in for meals and entertainment. He says business has been steady for the past five years although the fuel price jump has caused the number of boats visiting the Sandbar to decline this year. Robert is an avid boater and has travelled the Great Lakes extensively by boat. On a recent day trip to the 9 Mile Road and Jefferson Avenue area along Lake St. Clair he and 24 other boats spent the day shopping and dinning. His guess is that combined everyone that made the trip probably left $20,000 with local businesses. His advice for a downtown marina, exclusively transient, 100 slips with electric, water and cable T.V. hook-ups, showers and similar facillities and either attractions within walking distance or a shuttle bus. He did comment that since 9/11 it has been more difficult to get and I-68 Card from customs.
Windsor Harbour Commission
The WHC currently owns and operates Riverside Marina. Dave Cree says that traffic has been down over the past five years. There are empty wells but they are smaller in shallower water. The deepest wells for the bigger boats are full with a waiting list. He told me that owners of smaller boats are choosing to trailer them to ramps when they want to go out rather than paying rent on a well. The Harbour Commission also ran the Mill Cove Marina in the Sandwich Towne area. Mill Cove was a “dry-stack” marina where boats were stored indoors on racks. Boaters would call ahead and marina workers would bring out the boats and put them in the water. Boat designs changed and the hulls got wider so that they would not fit into the racks. Replacing the racks was cost-prohibitive and so the marina was closed. I asked Dave if anyone had considered opening Mill Cove as a transient facillity. He said it was kind of discussed but never seriously considered. When asked about the project for the CCW lands he said that he was briefed on the concept prior to its unveiling and that the Harbour Commission was not involved in the design process.
Duffy’s Marina
To complete the circle I spoke with Grace Zec, General Manager of Duffy’s. Duffy’s is a designated port-of-entry and she says that business form the marina this year is down fifty percent. Grace says that business has been down since 9/11 citing stricter customs regulations. A stronger Canadian dollar isn’t helping. Duffy’s always attracted boaters from Wyandotte and Grosse Isle, Michigan, just minutes away by boat, as a dinner spot now those boaters aren’t coming anymore. She pointed out that now many boat owners use them as cottages. Parked at the marina, people come out on the weekends and relax and entertain but they don’t take them out on the water very much. Grace was very positive about a marina in downtown saying that it is important to diversify as much as possible and open new avenues for tourism.
Tags: City Centre West, investment, place making
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Great job, James! It’s nice to hear, from the horses mouths, what life is like ot there in marinaville.
In addition to the above noted information, I sail out of the Windsor Yacht Club and my family has been involved in the club for the past 20 years (my father is a past commodore) Until five or so years ago, there has been a long waiting list to get a well, yet these days there are many sitting empty. They’ve even eliminated some of the smaller wells to make room for some of the very large boats that couldn’t be accomodated before.
In no way does this mean that I wouldn’t support some marine development downtown, however. I will be voicing my opinions soon, after this mountian of vacation laundry is finished.
Very cool,
I think most everyone understands boating is down, however there is no marina in our area that is attached to anything like this development
You either have marina’s that are connected to a single restaurant like Duffy’s or Sandbar, or in bell river you can access a park. I don’t think its location or proposed destination has a comparable.
My concern with this marina is that it wouldn’t have enough demand in the current economy. I’d be more worried that it might be too small to be sustainable. can you justify operation or staffing of them with so few transient wells. I’m not saying we could support a 100+ slip marina, just that
24-30 wells is so few that if its own success could frustrate visitors.
The marina is a selling feature for some of the new residences and even having a boat ramp would allow a lot of residences to hae a new amenity.
What really turns my crank is the thought of a Ferry Service, Andrew Foot Suggested it as an amenity a week or two before this announcement and I seized upon it being a great Idea then as I do now.
Downtown detroit has a residential population that could be lured to downtown Windsor. This is not solely tourism to me.
I believe that we should be treating downtown detroit as an adjacent neighborhood to our downtown instead of tourists . I have bought into the retorhic about two nation destination and the line from the Canadian Embassy that “The border connects us rather than dividing us”
The feeling I got was that people that travel by boat do so because they have the means to do so. I just spent a couple of minutes on Google Earth tracing around Lake St. Clair on the U.S. side, there are A LOT of boats out there within a very reasonable day trip distance 100 wells at the only facillity of its kind in Downtown Windsor might be a minimum. Especially if you consider Robert Troupe’s trip with a group of 25 boats.
Nexus cards can also be used in place of I-68’s so promotion of that card can help as well
I’d also be worried about the casino simply booking any transient wells for their own customers as I’m sure casino customers with boats would love to arrive by boat.
I could even see the casino owning or overflow renting a few of the residences for high rollers who are interested in that particular amenity
But these are problems of demand which would be far funner to solve
Today there’s another letter to the editor by Spyros Chinos which I think badly confuses the engineering involved, the letter makes all kinds of faulty assumptions.
I wish the Star would print a disclaimer above it regarding the writer not having a clue of what he’s talking about. The feasibility study will show the requirements at the least
I’m interested as well in what the feasibility study comes up with for economic opportunities that we haven’t thought of. Its funny
We’ve fleshed out the three main concerns regarding this project.
1. Feasibility and cost (in terms of dollars and other projects that will be put off)
2. Damage or destruction of the existing neighborhood and
3. Environmental and Economic Damage.
These will be forwarded to those who are part of the feasibility study with a request that they be addressed.
I would challenge people to come up with positive spinoffs or opportunities that would be created by this project. I think we’re going to be embarrassed by the amount that others think of that have been overlooked on this website denying a complete analysis. I’ve posted my list but I thats just what I’ve thought of while defending against critics, I’m sure smarter more creative people than I, could think of far more.
If you’re going to do a cost benefit analysis of this project, you have to fully analyze the benefits as well. In my case I’ve already determined the benefits outweigh the costs. However, with everyone focused on the costs, I dont’ think we’ve come close to fleshing out the benefits and potential benefits of a project like this
I have acknowledged and not dismissed the costs on this project, would those who oppose it acknowledge and listen to every benefit?
“Today there’s another letter to the editor by Spyros Chinos which I think badly confuses the engineering involved, the letter makes all kinds of faulty assumptions.
I wish the Star would print a disclaimer above it regarding the writer not having a clue of what he’s talking about. The feasibility study will show the requirements at the least”
Mark you budding engineer you, I’d like you to expand on this thought. That isn’t to say that I put stock into Mr. Chinos’ letter, but your dismissal seems vague and off-hand.
I’m not saying I know about the canal engineering
I’m saying that I know for sure that HE DOESN’T KNOW and shouldn’t write as if he does or that at least someone qualifies it.
I’ll put my money where my mouth is, wanna bet $100, his assumptions are wrong?
Mark.
I’ll take that bet on double or nothing.
The engineering required will be quite extensive and time consuming, considering if the underlying ground will support it.
Sewers, water mains, electrical, gas lines, all have to be re-routed and not to mention the cost of disruption due to construction.
There is a cost benefit analysis required. Can it support itself or will taxpayer dollars keep it upgraded and how much will it cost yearly?
Not to mention the Delray plans across the river want marinas there too.
I wonder where this idea came from?
Maybe Windsor needs smaller steps working in harmony with a larger plan.
P.S. He might know about other canal engineering but not the particular details of this particular project. I doubt many do. I on the other hand, want to hear how the 3 problems with this project will be addressed before I conclude what can be done to mitigate those costs. I’m curious what they’ll propose and hope they are more imaginative than all of us (myself included) are on this site who have not even attempted to think of ways to mitigate all of the 3 concerns listed. I’ve come up with feasibility benefits but no one has even thought if there an ingenuitive way to mitigate existing neighborhood destruction and ecological damage.
He talked about breakwalls having to be extended 70 ft to capture river current for water flow.
Mark, I specifically said that I didn’t necessarily support what he said in his letter. I’m not going to puff out my chest and throw money down on a bet. All I was asking is for you to illustrate what about his letter you claimed to be faulty assumptions. What are those faulty assumptions?
All I see you offer is:
“He talked about breakwalls having to be extended 70 ft to capture river current for water flow.”
Yes, I see that he did. I do not see your rebuttal, which is what I am after.
I agree that we need to see this feasibility study. You say that he does not know the particular details of this canal project. Do you? If you do, please share. If you don’t, how can you know that his assumptions are faulty? Actually, what ARE his assumptions? That is the part I am not totally clear about.
I should add:
I think a big problem with putting so much energy and attention into Letters to the Editor is that it is definitely not a forum for scientific discussion and investigation, owing to the limited space available and the lack of fact accountability.
Let’s not confuse two very different water features in the artist’s/architect’s rendering.
The Caron Avenue rail cut is proposed to be navigateable by boats entering from the Detroit River. The street level “canals” are about thirty feet above the Detroit River. They are water features that will use city water as their source and flow down along Chatham Street into the marina channel (Caron Avenue rail cut) and north from some kind of fountain/amphatheater to the river.
There you have it. Not many people do know what is going on which is once again Eddie’s folly.
Can anyone explain why residents weren’t involved in this discussion which will affect THEIR property? My assumption is that Eddie wanted to scoop the entire thing as “his” idea. Why can’t Eddie just allow other people to get involved? Why does he need all of the so-called positive attention and then deflect any criticism to council. Personally I am tired of his game of one-up-manship. Just look at how he treats Alan Halberstadt, an elected official jsut like Eddie.
Mark talks about how boaters are going to come here to look at a 4 block canal with condo’s. Well Mark take a look at Lighthouse Cove Marina and the adjacent neighbourhood. Two restaurants with one now closed and the majority of the marina is empty on any given day. Nice houses with canals in their backyards with the ability to dock their personal watercraft. Yet some houses are have been for sale for a year plus. So why aren’t boaters coming to see that neighbourhood and those restaurant(s)?
I don’t think Windsor is in the financial position to try this “think big or go home” endevour and hope for the best. Why is the city gambling on this type of idea when the first RFP wasn’t released? Hell, it is only peoples lives and land that the city is toying with so I guess in most people’s eyes it is no big deal. At least the suburbanites will have, potentially, someplace to go right? We have given everything to the suburbanites already so what is another heritage neighbourhood in the grand scheme of things?
I forgot to add. Since you have conceded that the marina proposed will probably be too small then if it needs to be built (I have no problem with a marina at all, it is the canal proposal that irks me) then again why not build it longer or wider south of University Ave? Sure it will cost more but what is the alternative?
Let me also add that Mark is being very disengenuous when he states that we haven’t even attempted to mitigate all 3 concerns listed. I have done just that too numerous to count. Yet you have ignored or side-stepped what I have proposed.
As for “city water” being used. I am sure all of us who have been hit with that 86% increase in WUC rates (plus another one coming next year) will be glad to know that OUR money is being used to fill the canal at a cost of approx. $600,000 initially and a possible city monthly bill of $300,000+ to keep levels high and keep it clean. Al for a canal that goes for 4 blocks and is 30 feet wide.
As far as I am concerned, lets build a canal right down Ouellette Ave to Chatham E and then down in front of the casino. B ut then those stores would have to be torn down wouldn’t they?
I think it’s great that James called around to the various marinas for input on their current state of business, but maybe some questions should have been asked about off season business. I understand that the thought is that transient boaters and members will bring business to the downtown core, but is the boating season long enough to support these downtown businesses year round? I understand that with a successful marina we will see new businesses spring up, but will it be enough to cause developers to build residential units in the area? I do not own a boat, nor do I have friends who own boats, but can someone tell me if the restaurants at marinas stay open all year, when there is ice on the water and no boats? I understand that members might be loyal to these marina restaurants during off season months, but if we are looking to appeal to transient users, who will be supporting these businesses during the off season periods? By bringing in a seasonal business as a downtown anchor, will this leave an entire section of the core area dead all winter? Is there a more suitable, year round business, which might be better for the downtown as a whole?
Great blog James. Having the insider info always provides an interesting perspective on things. It is quite encouraging that some of those in the business are positive about the possibility of a marina in the downtown area.
Continuing to speak about the economic, social, and environmental benefits and costs of the canal proposal as if they are all mutually exclusive when in fact they are inseparably linked will effectively limit the understanding of the interconnectedness of all environments affected by this potential development. Speaking in monetary terms significantly limits the value placed on the ecosystem services and even intangible social benefits of a well functioning neighbourhood.
Just to give you some understanding of the ‘lens’ from which I am attempting to look at this proposed development (and all others) through, please have a read through the following primer: http://www.sustainer.org/pubs/Seville.Nat.Cap.html
This primer is used to supplement the book Natural Capitalism (I know some of you have some reservations and concerns about some of the proposed solutions that are put forward and frankly so do I). This primer is aimed at understanding the premise of ‘systems thinking’ and acknowledges that everything is interrelated. Try to put aside that this is strictly speaking to enterprise/industry’s inseparable link to ecosystem services, the point I’m attempting to make is that under current evaluation techniques and proposals, holistic system-based thinking is more or less absent and decisions seem to be made as they have been for decades. Do we want to continue building the way we have and potentially causing irreparable ecological damage or do we need a large shift in thinking?
If the intent of our generation (and for the sake of future generations)is to be truly sustainable it is going to take a very different approach and a change in society’s core values? If that is not going to change anytime soon, why not at least try to integrate it into the ‘feasibility’ studies that determine whether major development proposals move forward or not. I’m not against the canal idea; I’m just hoping that a holistic approach is taken in the decisions around it, its design and possible construction.
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/008144.htm
Lots of great points from all the comments and kudos to James for taking the time to do all of the interviews!
Regarding the question about restaurants that stay open, Sandbar is open year round. They are very smart and spent a load of money completely renovating the beachy (cheesy), semi-popular bar into a bright and airy family restaurant. One wall is all glass with high ceilings and everything is dark wood and there’s a big fireplace and a room that can hold parties, a large deck and a little garden. The restaurant over the Belle River Marina used to only be open during boating season; I moved so I don’t know if that’s still the case. The Sandbar has the benefit of its close proximity to the highway and being able to draw winter traffic from Tecumseh, Puce and Belle River.
If a plan does go forward, they should involve all of the marinas and talk about how this should not be looked at as a mutually exclusive plan. If you want to bring in overnight boaters the marinas should work together (and the towns). For a successful downtown marina you should build a “water tour map” so when people come, here’s your map of other marinas to stop at …Colchester and ride your bike to the winery, Belle River and taste award-winning gyros, etc.
If anyone was fortunate enough to see Dr. Johan Bruwer speak here a few years ago (he’s the one that helped get Australian wines into our homes…the stats were something crazy from 1% market share to 50% market share in North America in under 10 years or something like that), he made valid tourism points. While his information was wine based, I think some things would work here.
- Know about everyone in your business - the wineries would educate themselves on the other wineries to answer visitors questions
- Have a commonality - the wineries were all separate yet all wore the exact same uniform, something like a golf shirt with the winery on one sleeve and the region’s organization on the other; I think they all set the same price for tastings too so you knew what to expect regardless of who you visited
- Create a board - one member of each winery joined the board and this is how they exchanged info, worked on maps, set tasting rates, etc.
A person who visited one winery in a day may visit another so the whole process was to work hand in hand to encourage multiple visits. People didn’t have to like each other, they just had to follow a few basic things to make the entire region a success. They understood that by working together, they could make the region desirable to encourage visits and more people would come.
If the casino wants to own the marina, let them. When we were in Monaco we went to look at the big boats that belonged to rich people just because we could. If the casino marina became a success then you could expand or build another one.
And sure, there are environmental impacts but the Detroit River is not a pristine river. They tell you not to swim in it and not to eat the fish. From the Detroit news, “If you do eat this fish [can't remember the only acceptable type that you can eat from the river], limit it to one per month.” Ew.
Anyway, that’s long and all over the place but I hope it makes sense. I think we need to consider that Windsor isn’t going to be crappy for the rest of our lives if we believe in and make investments. I’m not saying to just build another marina and hope it fills up but I think there are ways to start marketing and planning and increasing response to see if an addition would help draw people into (and then around) the area.
I think catering to only transient boaters would, once again, put an emphasis on visitors over residents. To not offer potential buyers of these high-end condos the opportunity to dock their boat in front of their homes would be unwise.
Sure, not all of the potential Urban-Village home buyers would be boaters, but I’m sure having that option would draw certain people to the neighbourhood that would otherwise stay where they are. The Great Lakes region has the WORLD’S highest pleasure boating population and to not play up to that resource would be folly, regardless of what is happening to some of the other smaller, out-of-the-way marinas.
By creating a community that has a strong marine theme, and catering to marine users (think of some of the smaller bouritque businesses in Halifax that create their unique appeal) as well as drawing residents because of it’s higher attention to detail, would make this a compelling and successful development.
There’s nothing boaters want more than to be closer to their boats, whether they actually use them to navigate our local waterways, or as floating cottages.
Kdduck, you MUST be a naysayer because you aren’t thinking BIG! Why not go bigger and level the entire downtown and make it one big lake! We can fill it with beer so that we can attract more kids from the USA and people will flock to see it! It would be the world’s largest keg!
I’ll bet your property value would skyrocket if that was the one plan that this administration actually brought to fruition, ME!
Not a naysayer, just a realist.
If they put in a beer canal down Chatham street, could you imagine the parties in front of Jason’s and the saloon?
They’d have to use american beer. Already tastes like pee.
Seriously…..
Nice topic.