The problem with The Retirement Community Strategy
The often touted option for Windsor to become a retirement community has a flaw. Now this flaw is not insurmountable, it is simply solveable by following the same strategy that Scaledown.ca recommends. Making our communities walkable.
In this article from the Chicago Tribune we see that seniors are already realizing that the choice to retire healthier and live longer is to retire in a walkable community.
“Certainly, walkability is a selling point at urban retirement buildings such as the Clare. Future residents were recently surveyed, and 90 percent mentioned walking as their No. 1 activity, according to Angela Hanson, building marketing director.
Being able to walk solves a big problem for older suburbanites who can no longer drive, Hanson said. “If you live in an urban setting and can walk places, giving up the car is not a landmark event.”"
If we are going to pursue the retirement community as a strategy (and we should as a district or part of a larger strategy) then we need to do it well and not as a fallback position. We have a world class waterfront park, but how easy is it for all seniors to get to it? Does Riverside Drive or the sloped hill present obstacles? if they do then we need to address them.
Here is another example of a successful senior community .
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Making the community attractive to the retirement set - Yes! But, making a retirement district - NO.
The Mixed-use, Mixed-residential formula should suffice.
Agreed, I just don’t want to be labeled as only a retirement community, it should be a part of the mixed use, just not the whole thing. But I agree with your comment
In order for this “idea” to even have a chance, we need to get shovels in the ground and build a new hospital.
For the amount of sprawl to the east, it is mind blowing that there isn’t a hospital east of Walker Road.
There should have been one built at Lauzon or Manning 15 years ago… Despite how we all feel about urban sprawl, there is no denying that the east side of the city is woefully under represented. The perfect example was when Mickey Renaud died the other week. He collapsed in his house in Tecumseh, where did the ambulance take him? Met. From Tecumseh to Met, and with Walker closed, they must have come up Central and along Tecumseh.
I live in the core, if I was in need of emergency medical serivces, I can be at a hospital in minutes. How long do you think it takes a critical heart attack victim to get to Met from Tecumseh or St. Clair Beach or even Belle River?
Without quality access to quality healthcare, the retirment community will remain nothing but a pipe dream.
The same argument could successfully be raised for the new “downtown” development that Murray Troupe is building on Banwell.
Every community should have a decent retail district within close proximity, for if they don’t they inevitably end up motoring through various neighbourhoods to find one. Whereas I question the cities involvement in providing infrastructure (no qualms if it is 100% developer financed) I do not doubt that it will save a lot of vehicle trips for Tecumseh/East Enders to the mall.
These people will never be downtown supporters (just ask their councillor - The Free Ride Is Over) so they may as well stay in their own neighbourhoods instead of exercising their SUVs in mine.
Although I won’t quarrel with your suggestion that we need a hospital east of Walker, I think its an independant issue from the one I raised.
However it does serve as an example of what we are talking about. You can add 30,000 retiring residents to Tecumseh and Lakeshore and definitely need a new hospital costing tens of millions. You will also have to beef up fire, police maybe add another social services satellite office, community center etcetera etcetera etcetera
OR
You can add 30,000 residents to the core without adding one police station, fire station, hospital, roadway, park or any other amenity that a retirement community needs.
For some reason, certain councillors think that they are being fiscally conservative by accounting for money spent in the core.
I was looking at the CIP for the marentette village thinking this would be a nice retirement neighbourhood, but, then i noticed where they’re calling for a 16 FLOOR highrise on the drive. So, I’m wondering, does the city need more skyscrapers? Are skyscarpers the best sustainable thing to do? Isn’t 6 otr 7 floors the most one would want to go without getting too out of scale? I always thought, and still do, that nothing should be built taller than the nearest church steeple.
I was told at an IDA conference that the issue was studied and that the generally accepted number of floors is 5. They said that after that the people don’t come down and interact with the neighborhood. I have no idea where they got that number and I would argue that Paris does quite nicely with their 7 storey limit.
However the point is that this topic has been studied and there are objective answes to those questions.
So why is the CIP gunning for 16 floors?
We’re not the only ones who think so, Mark…
County receives national EPA award
Growing old in Carver County may not necessarily mean you will be in the minority in the years ahead. And to prepare for it Carver County has taken steps to ensure this will be a place where senior citizens will not be left behind. Two weeks ago it received a national award for that work. Carver County Public Health accepted a national “Building Healthy Communities for Active Aging” Commitment Award from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) at the Seventh Annual New Partners for Smart Growth: Building Safe, Healthy and Livable Communities Conference Feb. 7-9 in Washington, D. C.
Carver County was one of seven winning communities and government agencies from around the country to receive the first-ever awards from the EPA’s Aging Initiative. The awards are designed to recognize outstanding community planning and strategies that support active aging and smart growth, thereby improving the quality of life of older residents. Five …
For more of this story, click on or type the URL below:
http://www.waconiapatriot.com/articles/2008/02/25/norwood_young_america_times/news/news04.txt
I wasn’t involved in that CIP but I’m assuming that they simply wanted to max out new residents and thats how they felt they had the best chance at doing it. Many times these decisions come down to a lesser of two evils. Some could argue that the option of doing nothing is worse than having another highrise even though so many cities are moving away from that type of development.
How about discussing adding Doctors? When people retire they may be well but will require Doctor’s services. How many people in this region don’t have a GP or are waiting a ridiculous amount of time for a specialist?
In order to be something, one must have the infrastructure solidly in place.
As one heading that in this discussion, I wouldn’t want the downtown or any other area as just retired seniors…snoring! I mean that the streets will be empty by 8:00 PM! Not good for businesses! A mix-use area would be the best, youth, businesses, hustle and bustle like!
I also really don’t want seniors or retirees type condos/homes et al necessarilly clustered around medical/hospital centres, although important, it is to much of a reminder what ahead. Some seniors apartment blocks have the distinction of being called God’s waiting room! Or Oneway homes!
Sixteen floors is eleven to many, to lonely if you’re single. Also in case of a building emergency such as fire or flooding, sixteen floors will create a great panic and probably since elevators stop running during an alarm can lead to more deaths or injuries. Think of retirees with walkers or scooters and nitro pills!
Besides when we all die and there are no young people around (all out west), the core will be vacant again and just as desolate.
Thats what I keep saying, it can be part of the city’s strategy, but definitely not the entire strategy.
4-7 stories seems to be the consensus, Someone at the IDA conference told me the magic number is 5
Its not whether you get seniors, its the right seniors, thats where the districting comes in, Seniors who like arts go to the arts district, seniors that like a little italy atmosphere go to erie street. But you don’t hide the fact that seniors that go to the Avenue or Avenue South will be exposed to a vibrant nightlife.
Unfortunately, seniors will live where its cost efficient- not necessarily in a “district”. The most important thing when assigning districts is to ensure that they have the juice to become destinations.
Business and housing will find its own level.
“You can add 30,000 residents to the core without adding one police station, fire station, hospital, roadway, park or any other amenity that a retirement community needs.”
Mark, I have to call bullshit on that. Add 30,000 seinors to the core would still require a new hospital. With that kind of influx you would need a Hotel Dieu, Grace and Met to be open and fully functionning, each with an emergency room.
Besides if 30,000 seinors move downtown, there’s nothing there… You still have to get in you car and drive, that would nesscitate road repairs and upgrades, maybe even more dreaded one-way streets to help with the traffic flow.
Adding 30,000 ppl downtown is a problem Windsor would be lucky to have, no matter what. Infrustructure is there and services will expand accordingly, naturally, as needed. transit, healthcare, etc.. n’es ce pas?
With that many retirees/seniors in the core, the city will have to build wider sidewalks! but narrower roads when they can’t drive anymore. Think about all those walkers, electric scooter devices all over the sidewalks as they are now, then imagine even more! I pointed that out to some one in city planning a few years ago and we had a laugh, that it might be so.
Then we will need less road widening, building, E.C. expressway will become a skateboarders heaven etc.!
Belleriver, Kingsville are all pursuing the retirement program as we are suggesting here, there is one flaw in attacking retirees to those communities, who will drive them, if they can’t drive themselves or their love ones to a medical centre or hospital. The strain on their families or the community to get them their health care needs will be overwhelming to say the least, not to say on the ambulance service!
I meant ATTRACTING retirees…sorry!
Mark, I have to call bullshit on that. Add 30,000 seinors to the core would still require a new hospital. With that kind of influx you would need a Hotel Dieu, Grace and Met to be open and fully functionning, each with an emergency room.
Fine 30,000 may not be the number (maybe the better number to use is 15,000) but the point is you could add thousands without adding another hospital.n Also reopening a emergency room and making an existing hospital fully functional is far cheaper than building a new hospital from scratch. You cannot add one retiree to the county without endangering their lives with the proximity to hospitals
“Besides if 30,000 seinors move downtown, there’s nothing there…”
I have to call Bullsh*** on that one, there is nothing the suburbs have that downtown doesn’t. Downtown has infinitely more amenities than the suburbs
Road repairs and upgrades in the core will cost less than the 300 million widening of the E.C. Rowe now, wouldn’t it?
Building up your core infrastructure is a mere fraction of building new infrastructure that will need to be maintained in the sprawl area
Mark, don’t take this the wrong way, I’m pro-downtown revival and so is Andrew in his own way, but announcing downtown has infinitely more amenities than the suburbs is a looong stretch under current conditions. Granted, it has the infrastructure and potential to bring amenities back, but right now…. bars, bars, massage parlours, the casino, shawarma joints, more bars….. that isn’t a senior citizen’s cup of tea. When you have clothing shops, camera stores, dept. stores, etc. moving out or closing down, those are REAL amenities everyday people need for everyday life! Also we need to consider that senior citizens are a gentile lot. Screaming drunks outside their window at 3 a.m., stepping over piles of vomit on the sidewalk, those are things that turn a senior off. They turn me off too. Downtown needs to be more than just a place to go party, gamble, get a hand job. It has been suggested here already that local gov’t offers incentives to small businesses in the form of reduced taxes to set up downtown, and I think that’s an obvious start in the right direction. The buildings and roads and everything it needs to go back to what it was fifty years ago is all ready for the revival…!
Makr,
As President of Gateway Public Park I will be going in front of council (hopefully this March) to get them to put in a crossing light in front or very near the Portofino condo’s so that the seniors in that building can have access not only to Gateway Public Park, but also to the riverfront.
Not only will this crosswalk link the two parks together but it will also help people cross the street as there is no light for approx. 2km’s each way.
Also of note is that the Greater Windsor Foundation is looking to expand their peace beacons along the water front (I believe they want to add 3 more) and one of them is going to go right in front or very near the Portofino condo.
Portofino had to pay special fees when they started in order to have a potential light put in at a later date. Now is the time!
How interesting that you brought that up when I am in the middle of doing my power point presentation. We certainly need to connect more as it is obvious we are on the same page with many ideas.
As for retirees. Bring them on! But as stated, we need to make our communities more walkable. Sad to say that the “new” urban village being possibly developed for the east side is exactly what we need (a little more heritage in style maybe) for the City Centre West. I wonder when that will EVER get off the ground?
Now for my plug…with spring so very near we are looking for volunteers at the park who would be willing to donate either time, money or plants/shrubs/trees. We are usually there Monday evenings from 6:30PM-whenever you can stay and wednesday from 6:30PM-whenever you can stay. Also we are there Saturday mornings, come anytime or call 519-818-3630 and tell the person who answers you are looking to volunteer and drop my name. Any one day or all of the days would be great! Also, some work does get done during the day so you can call that number and meet with someone at the park. We supply water, gloves and tools. You supply your time.
http://www.gatewaypublicpark.com
“Mark, don’t take this the wrong way, I’m pro-downtown revival and so is Andrew in his own way, but announcing downtown has infinitely more amenities than the suburbs is a looong stretch under current conditions. ”
Other than the “costco badlands” and other national chains, you tell me what amenity the suburbs have over the downtown. I find the “costco badlands” the opposite of an amenity.
“but right now…. bars, bars, massage parlours, the casino, shawarma joints, more bars….. that isn’t a senior citizen’s cup of tea.”
Casino, schawarma are great amenities, casino is packed with seniors. Massage parlors should have been zoned out of downtown years ago and it is an affront to our downtown that they aren’t
” Also we need to consider that senior citizens are a gentile lot. Screaming drunks outside their window at 3 a.m., stepping over piles of vomit on the sidewalk, those are things that turn a senior off. They turn me off too.”
There is a harmless rowdiness issue on the Avenue and Avenue south. That is part of every successful entertainment district and we should make no apologies to that. The 3am shutdown is in council and licencings hands, if the city agrees the DWBIA can make sure our clean up crews have the place clean for retail and residential operating hours.
Call your city councillor and ask them to support a 3 am closing time.
Mark, never mind the Costco badlands, I have more amenities right here in south walkerville than I would if I lived downtown. I can leave my car parked in front of the house for days if I want to. I couldn’t do that downtown. Geez, how much shawarma and gambling do you expect a person to engage in? Where are there any hardware stores downtown? Electronics retailers? Clothing? (and I don’t just mean one or two specialty shops but places like Reitmans that appeal to a wide cross-section). Even a Giant Tiger downtown would go a long way to making it more walkable and liveable for residents. But right now downtown just doesn’t offer a decent cross section of amenities or essentials required for someone to actually *live* there and not constantly have to venture away for essentials. Pretending everthing’s OK won’t make it better. Even Ottawa street with all its woes has a wider diversity of amenities than downtown Windsor. And Erie street blows the doors off any district in terms of vibrancy and amenities.
And yes, I wholly support the BIA’s 3am closing time, you know that, but especially as I don’t see anything “harmless” about rowdiness. Get your car vandalized once or twice by drunks leaving a bar, as happened to a friend of mine while he lived on Victoria downtown, and it’s not so cute anymore. The BIA can say “like it or lump it” on the side effects of the type of entertainment district it is down there if it wants, but when people take option B and “lump it” somewhere else, how does that help replace the lost residents? Carry on the current path of bars, bars, bars, and what do we expect is going to ever change downtown??
First, it would be difficult to find a downtown that would allow free parking for days.
Secondly, there’s hardware in the variety store in victoria park place. What type of electronics? clothing retailers still exist
But thats a cart before the horse question, bring the residents and the businesses will open.
When I say rowdiness, I never for one minute wanted to excuse vandalism, simply a bit of hooting an hollering.
Mark, when I said I could leave my car in front of my house for days it was an expression meaning “I DON’T NEED TO USE MY CAR TO GET WHAT I NEED FROM MY LIVING QUARTERS. MY NEIGHBOURHOOD IS WALKABLE”. Downtown isn’t……yet. A handful of cheap screwdrivers in a variety store in the VPP does not make for a hardware store. That’s just weak. Even downtown Peterborough - half Windsor’s size - has a proper Home Hardware.
No one is going to move downtown *before* it becomes liveable. The BIA is operating the horse, not the residents. Why is the onus on the residents to come there first, as if on act of faith? Who will comprise the first wave of the hopeful? I don’t think it is realistic at all.
If one follows the Toronto downtown condo formula, there has to be residents in place to create a climate for stores to service them. Canadian Tire, Future Shop, Winners, even the basic grocery stores didn’t surface until the population grew. It took roughly 15 years. There have to be reasons to live in a neighbourhood, whether it be downtown or in the suburbs.
The city of Vancouver several years ago told, and actually legislated, that if the big box stores wanted to build even more stores in the burbs, that they had to build in the downtown first, no exceptions! And it had to fit into their urban planning design. Basically no parking lots, walkable, streetscaped etc. It should be done in Windsor.
I got this from another blog I like and what they posted yesterday fits in nicely to what we are talking about here; The blog is Allaboutcities:
March 4, 2008
Clusters and (health) company towns
In the 19th and early 20th century many towns and small cities were dominated by one industry or even one company - the factory town. For example: Flint, MI and General Motors or Dearborn, MI and Ford.
Now, in the early 21st century some new company towns are emerging in the US — ones centred around providing superior health care and even health tourism of the most expensive variety: A “hospital town” instead of a factory town.
A recent Economist article featured Rochester MN, home of the Mayo Clinic, and Cleveland, OH home of the Cleveland Clinic.
They asked the question:
What happens when a clinic takes over a metropolis?
go here: http://allaboutcities.ca/
The article in the Economist cited above is here:
Cities and hospitals
Mayo with everything
http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10743347
Both make for interesting reading and asks important question that we are dealing with. Well worth the read.
Great point urbanrat. When our city tells us they can’t ignore the Wal-marts due to the issue of being sued I understand that but what we CAN tell the Wal-marts is WHERE they can build!
OK, so I’ve tried to stay away from this debate, but my blood level is rising a little after reading the comments between John and Mark.
Downtown is NOT a place for seinors. We are talking about trying to have a large contingent of older people moving to the core. We want to encourage walkability and getting cars off the roads no? Seinors have needs & wants, a string of shawarma places is not going to cut it. Sorry to generalize too, but with the generational gap, from my experience many seinors aren’t keen on “ethnic” foods. Just looking at my grandparents and my wife’s as an example you would have to kill them before you could get them to even try a dish with any curry in it…
10-15 years ago downtown Windsor would have been a viable option for seiniors. You had a ecelectic mix of shops in the Norwich Block, you had REAL retail downtown. Losing the Canadian Tire was a terrible thing. Farmers Market? Yup had one of those too…
Without having the services downtown to attract residents you never will. The emphasis needs to go away from attracting Americans to use downtown as a combination playground/toilet and from an entertainment district. There is a reason the core areas of the city are losing population.
Mark said - “There is a harmless rowdiness issue on the Avenue and Avenue south”. Is that what we call shootings and people getting their heads smashed in now? Explain why the window in the storefront in the parking garage at Park & Pelissier seems to get broken once or twice every year? Go to the Royal Bank on a Sunday morning to use the instant teller, it looks like a bomb went off in there. I have been in there several time, only to find the keypads covered in dried vomit. As someone who lives in the core, trust me that the rowdiness goes way beyond “hooting and hollering”.
I am firmly behind a downtown revitalization as John stated above, my commitment goes deep, I’ve set down my roots here, and bought a house. A house that through poor policy is now probably worth less than I paid for it. I don’t drive in from the suburbs every day to play downtown, this is my home. I want to see it improve, however as a resident, I see the problems, and I won’t carry on about how great the view is through my rose coloured glasses…
Without scrapping the plan that is currently in place and starting fresh, we’ll have to pretend to remain excited about press releases celebrating the opening of Money Marts and Shawarma’s downtown.
Downtown as it stands is ill equipped to handle 150 new seinors, never mind 1,500 or 15,000.
How can yo say downtown is not a place for seniors when they are already there.
I don’t think Downtown should be ashamed of having a healthy entertainment segment. This is something that is a part of every downtown. You can’t name a healthy downtown that doesn’t have problems that come with a healthy entertainment district.
This does not excuse vandalism. If the Streets were clear at 3am and the streetcleaners started earlier, you wouldn’t see many of the problems you state. If the camera’s were fully functional, and more stores were leased by local independants we could avoid more of the broken window incidents.
A HOspitality Resource Panel could address the problems that you talk about. Seniors can easily coexist in an area that has a healthy entertainment district. You don’t have to choose between them.\
With more people will come more stores, there has to be a Community Improvement plan in place that our council has the will to implement. Not one that sits on a shelf until 2012. That alone would send an encouraging message to businesses of where downtown is going.
BTW, other than the core areas, no where in southwindsor can anyone walk to anywhere. Everyone else in the city must drive for groceries but for some reason this is unacceptable in downtown.
As for amenities, downtown will always have more. Charles Clark, YMCA, Riverfront Park, Banks, Yoga, Video stores, Convenience Stores with some hardware and fruit, Actors Theaters, Movie theaters, Symphony, Art Gallery, Library, Casino, Restaurants, Cafe’s, Churches, A TON of Festivals, Pharmacies, Doctors. All walkable all the time
Sure we need more, but its absurdly ridiculous to not acknowledge what we have
Mark with all due respect, I live in the core, I have friends that live in the core. How about you? Yes you can find all the think mentioned above, but to call some of those an “amenity” is a stretch. Charles Clark Square is a cement pad. Wow awesome.
Convenience stores with hardware and fruit are a very poor substitute.
So you’re telling me because I can go to the service market and buy a no name frozen dinner that the owner bought at Zehr’s for .99 cents at a 150% mark up that that is a viable alternative to a grocery store? Please.
Having the streets cleaned at 3:00 am does not change the fact that downtown retail is dying.
Yes, you are right that many towns have healthy and active entertainment districts downtown. But all those towns also have something we don’t, VIABLE RETAIL in the core. Look at Kingston and Peterborough for examples, both have a great mix of entertainment and retail in the core. The Mix is the key. We don’t have that mix.
You are also right that we already have the seniors downtown, but anytime there are any issues they are the first ones to complain. Many of them also moved downtown when it was actually a decent place to live with many retail options, those options do not exist anymore. We have some now, but I bet given a choice to move free of charge to an equivalent apartment outside of the core, the vast majority would take the offer. How many NEW seniors have moved downtown recently? I would hazard to guess, not too many.
The argument that more people attract more stores is bunk. The stores were downtown as I stated above as recently as a decade ago. The exodus of businesses occurred before a loss of people. The businesses have left because of piss poor planning and policy. Oppressive business taxes and too much emphasis on entertainment and catering to American Children have put us in the pickle that downtown is in today. Absentee landlords who want top dollar rent from the “next big bar” are also helping to keep small businesses away. For an area that has as little retail as it does, both rent/utilities and taxes are far too oppressive for the average small store.
Festival season is awesome, and it is great fun, but they aren’t amenities, I can’t buy my groceries at a festival. A festival isn’t going to have the new book I want. I can’t find jeans or dress pants at the festivals.
There are many areas in the city with varied retail all in a walkable area, and with a much better selection that downtown has to offer. The areas of Tecumseh and Lincoln; Grand Marais & Dominion; anywhere along the eastern half of Ottawa St. all come quickly to mind.
You said: “Everyone else in the city must drive for groceries but for some reason this is unacceptable in downtown”. You’re darn right it is unacceptable. Living in a urban core area you have certain expectation, you EXPECT to have more options, varied shopping options, small independent shops, a large national retailer or two, and a grocery store. That is the advantage to living in the core area of a city.
No offense but as a business owner I think you might have a different view of the core than someone who lives there. Turn your restaurants over two or three times a night and all appears to be great. But living here day to day, watching the retail options get less and less, and seeing the mess and violence rise from the “entertainment” users, makes it a lousy place to live. I am seriously starting to regret the investment I made in the core 7 years ago. Living and dealing with the reduced city services, and a poor downtown, really wears on you. There is nothing worse that having to get in my car and drive out of the donut hole of retail to buy things that other downtown residents of other cities have close at hand. There is no one who can tell me that downtown is better than it was when I moved to the core, or that its even at the same level. I for one am getting sick of listening to all the glowing positive reviews of how great our downtown is. Take off the rose coloured glasses. Is a Money Mart moving into former national retailer space at Ouellette and Wyandotte something to be proud of? Does Money Mart and other predatory lenders make downtown better? To me that a business like Money Mart can move into a prime retail location on our Main Street, shows how serious the decline is.
I guess the solution is to become rich so I can eat out every day of the week for all three meals at restaurants. Then I’ll have no need for shopping options.
Mark, can you verify if that CIP is in fact held over until 2012 and why the city has put it on hold? Thanks.
If downtown had so much more than other districts you wouldn’t have to embellish your argument with desperate examples like “variety stores with some hardware and fruit” (c’mon, seriously), or speak of actors guilds when the Capitol is still closed, a substandard movie house (singular) with marked up screens, the library on its southern limits when there are library branches all over the city. Or giving examples like banks, doctors, etc. which are amenities available in any other district in Windsor’s interior, including mine where there are a handful in walking distance of a block or two.
The symphony, art gallery, and casino are all pluses but they don’t make for a complete range of amenities required for everyday living downtown. They make for a downtown that’s great to visit, take in the sounds of the WSO, then go back home. You can’t live the walkable life without vendors and services in the district providing the basic necessities of life. If you really want to promote downtown, stop offering Windsor shit-on-a-stick and telling us it’s ice cream. Downtown’s failure as a residential district speaks for itself. We’ve got to face up to downtown’s shortcomings and correct them. Pretending everything is OK will just lead to another thirty years of famine.
Where I do agree with you - and I have said so many times - is the 3am shutdown. Hell if I had my way it’d be 1am. But that would upset the bar owners who rule the roost, wouldn’t it? Either way, the overnight clean team is probably one of the best ways to make downtown presentable to the average citizen looking for a place to LIVE. Dried up vomit, broken windows, hollering and screeching tires, is not.
As for me, I will continue to go downtown when there’s a reason to go - festivals, restaurants, etc. It does have a great deal to offer in that respect. But as far as living there goes….. well…. I’m taking a wild guess even its most vocal spokesman doesn’t live downtown, so what does that say?
Andrew’s right about the “rosey coloured glasses” - let’s get downtown fixed up instead of ignoring problems that make it an unlivable district.
I guess we can agree to disagree then. I stand by my comment that downtown has infinitely more walkable amenities than anyother part of the city. You can criticize those amenities for not being as nice as they could or should be, but you cannot deny their existence.
I lived downtown for years and like others with young families, I moved close to my family for support, When my child is old enough, I will move back downtown. I spend every working hour and almost every social hour downtown and will always do so because there is so much to do if you open yourself up to what downtown has to offer
Including listening to local live bands which I now proudly host in my establishment until 2am without bothering a single solitary senior.
Stay tuned for the March WIFF screening of My Kid could paint that at the AGW. See http://www.windsorfilmfestival.ca for more information
I have an idea for the core, since John brought it up..library on the southern limits to downtown. That library on Ouellette is 30 plus years old! Way past its usefulness, nothing else can be done to it. So! Lets build a new one right downtown as the centre piece of the core. Libraries are more than what they were ten years ago, they’re community meeting places, wifi and internet, a place were everyone in the city can use and interact at the same time. New libraries in the city core’s of many U.S. cities have small indoor and outdoor piazas for small gathering or concerts, ground on the street reading rooms, where the reader can see people coming a going and can be seen from the street, and these new libraries have been the key strategy to getting the new downtowns going.
If we can invest 65 million for the jocks, surely we can invest twice as much for a civic centre/library that serves everyone in this city, from the newly arrived refugee, to the business man looking for market research, to seniors who want a safe comfortable place to meet and read or seek out government information on computers that they don’t have. According to one of the latest Pew Research findings, in the U.S. teens are flocking to libraries, to gather and meet and use the social networking provided by the library..in other words it’s cool to use libraries again for whole range of different reasons than just boring books.
Think of it right on the corner of Ouellette and University, one whole block for the citizens to use., almost for twelve hours a day and on weekends! The library now on Ouellette doesn’t have enough room, for literacy, computer training, Ontario Works, Ontario Early Education, New Settlers organization, on top of the traditional roles of library’s. I agree with Jim Stuart, a library board member, when he stated in the Star the other day, the trend from many smaller libraries, to larger ones strategically place to offer more space and services!
Public Libraries it has been found out by quite a few states in the U.S and in a 1997 Ontario paper, return on average $8.00 for every dollar invested back into the city or state or province in direct economic benefits. The state of Pennsylvania was shocked at their discovery state wide when the findings were tabulated! What other city organization can say that!
You want an anchor, that says to the world, we’re smart, we’re creative, we are looking to the future then build a new architecturally beautiful library in the core for everyone to use as they see ti.
Mark with the attitude of let’s agree to disagree is not an option at this point. People who live downtown are stating what they want but are being ignored. Why is that?
Why hasn’t Mr. Horwitz or the DWBIa returned calls? What happened to that task force MR. Horwwitz broadcasted on AM800 a few months ago?
People with a real interest in living downtown are being tossed aside. What happens when these people get fed up and leave? Do you think there is going to be another wave of people wanting to come down to live here? The people making a vested interest in turning their neghbourhoods around by investing vast sums of money in their property are not being heard not only by our own council and mayor but by the DWBIA. The same DWBIA that laments no one is visiting downtown. The sad fact is what is the DWBIA doing to try and lure other to live here when all they are doing is pandering to the people who “visit” on occassion.
We need a mix of retail not just bars and restaurants.
I applaude the lights, the planters, the facade program but has or is the DWBIA rtying to lure retailers? What about talking to the absentee landlords who charge outrageous rent in order to lure the 1-2 year life span of a bar?
Sorry but those who live downtown aren’t all rich and I would say the exact opposite. Most are low-income with a sprinkling of middle class. Cater to the middle and upper middle class and the downtown would be a boom. Currently you have to be low income to enjoy the dollar store or the money marts or be rich to eat out every single night. Heck, I couldn’t even go to a place downtown on a Sunday at 4:00PM for a club house sandwich that wasn’t a bar. How pathetic is that?
When is the DWBIa going to get off their high horse and start to cater to teh community that wants to live there but can’t and also cater to those who already live in the downtown area? Is the agenda for the DWBIA only for those who own a bar or restaurant? If so I would say that could be a big reason as to why the downtown has suffereed the way it has the last decade plus. Reach out tothe community that supports you ona daily basis and not to the one’s who do so only on the weekends.
I can’t helpit that I don’t agree with you, I’ve made my arguments and backed them up.
The DWBIA is without an Executive Director at this moment, Interviews likely start next week. I don’t know why Mr Horwitz hasn’t returned calls.
The HRP Director job was supposed to be posted months ago, the past ED said it would be done before she left and didn’t do it. I am trying to do it myself right now even though I am an unpaid volunteer. Once the HRP director is hired, a panel will be founded with 2 resident members. You should definitely apply to be on that because it has the potential to have a big impact on Windsor.
I wasn’t listening to the am800 broadcast so I don’t know what Mr. Horwitz is referring to
“The people making a vested interest in turning their neghbourhoods around by investing vast sums of money in their property are not being heard not only by our own council and mayor but by the DWBIA.”
That is simply untrue, Firstly, the DWBIA is a business representative. The fact that we are involving residents to begin with makes us progressive.
The DWBIA has put residents first. All this pandering accusations are ridiculous. What has the DWBIA done for Bars???? most of our bar paying members would like to see the DWBIA disbanded for the exact opposite of what you accuse the association of
The DWBIA budget goes like this
$100,000 Clean Team
$100,000 facade improvement
$205,000 Streetscape
$270,000 Admin, office, supplies, overhead etc. etc..
$50,000 Marketing (only marketing to business recruitment and residents)
Other budget expenditures include
Directional and wayfinding signage manuals
WIFI
Security cameras
Hospitality resource panel setup
NOTHING IN THAT IS FOR BARS, ITS ALL FOR CLEAN AND SAFE, INFRASTRUCTURE AND DEVELOPMENT
what the hell high horse are you talking about?
The DWBIA has never catered to bars since I became Vice Chair years ago. Everything we do is beneficial to residents.
You gotta stop with the totally unfounded accusations
Well then the DWBIA needs a full overhaul. If it’s beneficial to residents, I have yet to see any benefit.
As i have stated time and time again DOWNTOWN IS WORSE SINCE I MOVED DOWN HERE SEVEN YEARS AGO.
No offence, I volunteer as well so I understand how it is giving your time to try and make something better, but it’s painfully obvious that the DWBIA has failed. Why can’t they keep a director?
Two residents? Let me know I’ll be all over that.
I hate to say it but our downtown is crap and it’s on life support. There are many great individual peices to downtown, we’ve got amazing resturants like 3, Buda, Marathon, Basil Court, etc… But outside of eating, gambling, getting wasted and cashing cheques, there’s not much there.
I keep wishing for our bars to die. I hope the smoking ban would help, maybe passports will be the next nail. Sadly US economy, and stringent border rules, may be the best bet. The sooner the bars leave, the soon we can refocus our energies on making downtown a destination instead of a toilet.
The simple fact is when people aren’t invested in an area they don’t care. Our downtown isn’t alone, I see downtown Detroit treated the sameway after a sporting event. People come down, go to a game, get drunk, urinate all over the place, get back in their car and drive back to the suburbs, just like downtown Windsor.
Zero-tolerance is the only solution.
Mark,
If the DWBIA is catering to the residents then it has failed. If it is catering to business then what is a bar? A business! What other businesses are doing well downtown except for a few great reastaurants and the multitude of bars?
I too have stated my points well and I never said that DWBIA is doing nothing. But if the mandate to help business is there then it is failing because it seems to be only helping the resaurant industry and bars even if the bar owners want it disbanded.
I certainly will apply to be on that panel and I hope I am not blacklisted because of my POV. I want a very vibrant downtown that cates to everyone, not just a few.
I greatly appreciate the discourse and I hope you understand where the residents are coming from as we understand the plight that the downtown currently is in.
If it’s beneficial to residents, I have yet to see any benefit.
You don’t see a benefit because your eyes are closed
because you don’t see the 4 bags of street garbage that are picked up every day that would otherwise be strewn everywhere
because you don’t see the old streetscape anymore on Ouellette
because you don’t see the new parking spaces on Ouellette that streetscape created or apparantly see the expanded pedestrian space that has also been created on those 3 blocks
because you haven’t recognized the districting of downtown which is business recruitment is predicated on
because you haven’t seen the moneys that are spent on event sponsorship each year for downtown
because you didn’t see the work that went into the street closures during last years Grand Prix event
because you never visited any of the Maiden lane events
because you have never read the wayfinding and signage manual that cost the BIA $50,000 that will soon be adopted by the City of Windsor to clean up signage clutter
Because you have never looked at the LED lights in the trees or the Banner lights within the light posts
Because you never talked to a downtown host
Because you never read the International Downtown Association Panel Report that we paid that says what our city should do
Because you never read the countless reports that DWBIA board members volunteered literally 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of their time to help create regardless of the City shelving them. They include others and my time on the CVB, CCSERT, CCWCIP, Sustainable Downtown Plan, Destination Development Committee, Hospitality Resource Panel design seminars. etcetera etcetera etcetera
Theres a lot that you could see if you simply looked. Go to the DWBIA’s Annual General meeting on May 6 and voice your concerns. Voice your expectation of this organization
“but it’s painfully obvious that the DWBIA has failed. Why can’t they keep a director?”
Failed by your standards only, the DWBIA cannot change the economic conditions that the entire city face. We have accomplished many things that we have set out to do. We have stumbled and fumbled on other things. We are an all volunteer board devoting time to improving our downtown.
What have you done lately?????
BTW, look for another visit by Peter Belmio which we will also arrange on April 2nd
You can meet and talk with him and ask him what more we can be doing in addition to the Security cameras which you also never have seen
Really?
If it’s beneficial to residents, I have yet to see any benefit.
You don’t see a benefit because your eyes are closed
- My eyes are wide open and looking at downtown with an unclouded judgment.
because you don’t see the 4 bags of street garbage that are picked up every day that would otherwise be strewn everywhere
- I see the garbage picked up, but I also think that cleanliness and pride in downtown goes beyond basic services. You shouldn’t be proud of doing what needs to be done. I pick up the garbage infront of my house but I don’t ask to be recognized for it.
because you don’t see the old streetscape anymore on Ouellette
- I saw and dealt with this last year. At the end of the day, I see a black top road that looks cheaper and not much different than what was there before.
because you don’t see the new parking spaces on Ouellette that streetscape created or apparently see the expanded pedestrian space that has also been created on those 3 blocks
- Wow. That’s great but a half dozen spots aren’t going to save downtown. I see expanded extra-large sidewalks cluttered with outdoor patios that I need to dodge when I walk down there in the summer. How is it that in the 1930’s there were more businesses & more pedestrians, yet there was room for parking on both sides of the street, the full length of each block, and room for two pairs of streetcar tracks?
because you haven’t recognized the districting of downtown which is business recruitment is predicated on
- “Districting”, so we we going to give downtown a fake brand like they tried to ram down Walkerville’s throat with the “distillery district” moniker? May I suggest the “playground district”? Maybe the stretch of Pelissier in front of the Box Office could be branded as the “murder district”.
because you haven’t seen the moneys that are spent on event sponsorship each year for downtown
- Yes I have, good for you. I attended events and festivals downtown, as I said I live and spend my money down there.
because you didn’t see the work that went into the street closures during last years Grand Prix event
- Yeah I did, and I’m still not sure they’re anything more than an aggravation for those of us that live down here, and cross those street as part or our day to day life. Again this goes back to making the area “a playground” and not thinking about the impact on the residents. I am torn however, the jury is still out on this one for me. I do think however that we have no business pissing away tax dollars on an event in Detroit that brings no benefit to our City. I’m glad the bar owners benefited, but as a resident I didn’t.
because you never visited any of the Maiden lane events
- Prove to me I wasn’t there. Now you’re just talking out of your ass.
because you have never read the wayfinding and signage manual that cost the BIA $50,000 that will soon be adopted by the City of Windsor to clean up signage clutter
- Give me a copy. Not being a member of the BIA or City administration how would I have read this?
Because you have never looked at the LED lights in the trees or the Banner lights within the light posts
- Are these the lights that are on sometimes? Honestly I’m not a big fan. Trees are more than “display units” for some silly led lights. I hope that the CVB features this awesome new attraction on the cover of the visitors guide soon…
Because you never talked to a downtown host
- You’re right, I’ve never had any need too… I know where I’m going.
Because you never read the International Downtown Association Panel Report that we paid that says what our city should do
- Give me a copy. Not being a member of the BIA or City administration how would I have read this?
Because you never read the countless reports that DWBIA board members volunteered literally 100’s if not 1000’s of hours of their time to help create regardless of the City shelving them. They include others and my time on the CVB, CCSERT, CCWCIP, Sustainable Downtown Plan, Destination Development Committee, Hospitality Resource Panel design seminars. etcetera etcetera etcetera
- Give me a copy. Not being a member of the BIA or City administration how would I have read this?
Theres a lot that you could see if you simply looked. Go to the DWBIA’s Annual General meeting on May 6 and voice your concerns. Voice your expectation of this organization
- When and where is it?
“but it’s painfully obvious that the DWBIA has failed. Why can’t they keep a director?”
Failed by your standards only, the DWBIA cannot change the economic conditions that the entire city face. We have accomplished many things that we have set out to do. We have stumbled and fumbled on other things. We are an all volunteer board devoting time to improving our downtown.
- The director isn’t a volunteer though. It’s a paid position. There is a reason that they keep leaving, and it’s not necessarily anything to do with the board, but my guess is they tire of dealing with and ineffective council and mayor. The beaurocracy in this city can wear anyone down.
What have you done lately?????
- Well I bought a house downtown, I’m committed to the city. I live work and play in the city. I spend my money here. I refuse to spend my dollars outside of city limits. I shop local whenever I can. I support a local restaurant with my wife usually once a week, and the vast majority of the time it’s downtown. I’ve help organize a blogger meet up that meets once a month and rotates around the city supporting small businesses. Sure it’s not much but 10 people once a month on a Wednesday dropping a couple of hundred dollars doesn’t hurt. I can tell you what I didn’t do though. What didn’t is advocate for downtown, and start a family and then move out. I don’t claim that “When my child is old enough, I will move back downtown”. If downtown is as great as you claim why isn’t it a place to raise children? Looks like a classic case of “Do as I say, not as I do”. Every day through my actions and my daily life I put my money where my mouth is. To me downtown is my home, not just the place where I have a business interest. I also call it like I see it. I guess a resident’s perspective is different from a business owners. My housing dollars stay downtown. What have you done lately?
You can meet and talk with him and ask him what more we can be doing in addition to the Security cameras which you also never have seen
- I have seen them, and I don’t think they go far enough. Every inch of downtown should be covered by CCTV and monitored by law enforcement. Public safety or the perception of the lack of it is one of the biggest hurdles to overcome.
I think you go a little far in your generalizations. You need to find out what I’ve seen and where I’ve been before you start accusing me of not seeing and attending events and things in my backyard.
BTW - I’ve copied Mark’s post a rebuted each of his generalizations and inaccuracies by prefacing them with a dash ( - )
Anything following the dash is my response.
“You shouldn’t be proud of doing what needs to be done. I pick up the garbage infront of my house but I don’t ask to be recognized for it.”
You’d be wrong, basic services are provided by the city, businesses pay a surtax to pick up extra garbage that most of them are not responsible for in order to clean up above and beyond to the tune of $100,000 per year
“- I saw and dealt with this last year. At the end of the day, I see a black top road that looks cheaper and not much different than what was there before.”
That tar would be the road way which has nothing to do with streetscape.
“- Wow. That’s great but a half dozen spots aren’t going to save downtown.”
No single thing will, there is no magic bullet. Downtown management is about management of the details
- “Districting”, so we we going to give downtown a fake brand like they tried to ram down Walkerville’s throat with the “distillery district” moniker? May I suggest the “playground district”? Maybe the stretch of Pelissier in front of the Box Office could be branded as the “murder district”.
I don’t think the brands are fake and I think we are following the strategy of every successful downtown and experts who know a whole lot more than you or I
-”I do think however that we have no business pissing away tax dollars on an event in Detroit that brings no benefit to our City.”
The DWBIA had nothing to do with moneys that went to detroit, we spent moneys on downtown events only. If you question the mayors strategy call his office not the DWBIA
- Give me a copy. Not being a member of the BIA or City administration how would I have read this?
You made an assertioun we accomplished nothing, why not phrase those type of comments in the form of a question, much more polite.
- Are these the lights that are on sometimes? Honestly I’m not a big fan. Trees are more than “display units” for some silly led lights. I hope that the CVB features this awesome new attraction on the cover of the visitors guide soon…
As you see the DWBIA and myself have called ENWIN repeatedly, I can’t help it that they won’t listen, I’m hoping that ENWIN will listen to the public. P.S. the DWBIA pays the power bill so I don’t know why ENWIN won’t sell us the power
- Give me a copy. Not being a member of the BIA or City administration how would I have read this?
- When and where is it?
May 6th place TBA but likely at ST. Clair or the Art Gallery. I welcome the criticism
“- The director isn’t a volunteer though. It’s a paid position. There is a reason that they keep leaving, and it’s not necessarily anything to do with the board, but my guess is they tire of dealing with and ineffective council and mayor. The beaurocracy in this city can wear anyone down.
“What didn’t is advocate for downtown, and start a family and then move out. I don’t claim that “When my child is old enough, I will move back downtown”. If downtown is as great as you claim why isn’t it a place to raise children? ”
Hey, If you don’t think I’ve got enough invested into downtown or do not love it enough then I’d be happy to step aside for an advocate who does more, works harder and loves downtown more and appreciates its importance more. Find me that person and I’d be happy to simply get behind them and give them my full support.
In the meantime I’ll continue to go to my CVB meetings, my WIFF meetings and continue to be the only DWBIA member (with the exception to Mr. Horwitz) to sit on every subcommittee and task force of the DWBIA
“- I have seen them, and I don’t think they go far enough. Every inch of downtown should be covered by CCTV and monitored by law enforcement. Public safety or the perception of the lack of it is one of the biggest hurdles to overcome. ”
I agree, with you 100%
But Andrew, I think you are the one making accusations without asking the questions first. Do I get overly defensive, damn right, this has been my life’s work for years and you betcha I get frustrated when CIP’s get put on hold that I’ve volunteered 100’s of hours researching and donating my time to.
Honestly, there’s no point arguing with you. All you’re accomplishing is raising my blood level. For every point I can refute you can twist it to suit your needs. Obviously I’m looking at a different downtown.
I stayed clear of personal attacks above, but you felt the need to personally attack me, by asking what I’ve done, and insinuating that don’t attend events. That speaks volumes to me.
Another thing that speak volumes to me is the fact that YOU voted with your feet. YOU moved out of downtown, but you preach how great it is. If it’s that great move back to the core with us. It’s great as long as you don’t have to raise a family down here right?
That’s great that you run a business down there, but it’s not the same as making it your home, and living in it and with it day in and day out.
I pay bloated taxes too, for reduced services. Business owners are no different or no better than I am.
But you know what. You’re right.
I’m going to put on my rose coloured glasses and have a look at downtown and pretend that it’s an awsome place, and I’m going to tell everyone that doesn’t live down here how stupid they are.
DOWNTOWN IS AWESOME! THERE’S NOTHING YOU CAN’T GET DOWN HERE.
Thanks for showing me how wrong I was. I will pretend while I was down there this afternoon that I didn’t see vacant storefronts and that everything is great!
Dude, you think calling an organization I am the past chair of a complete failure is not a personal attack
I voted with my wallet by investing in downtown, I own two buildings downtown and have renovated them extensively right up until last year.
You may pay taxes but the BIA is a surtax above and beyond that tax.
You might take the DWBIA clean team for granted but there wasn’t one when I joined the board, so yeah, Im damn proud of being part of instituting one.
Downtown is awesome, there is nothing you can’t get down there. You might not like the quality of Downtown amenities but they do exist. I shop at The Mens Shop and occasionally Lou Myles for my clothes, I eat at as many downtown restaurants as I can get to, I attend as many festivals and arts events as I possibly can.
You keep touting your home address downtown, I’ll continue owning the two commercial bldgs I own.
Can it be infinitely improved. Of course, thats why I continue working on that.
I didn’t attack you, I sincerely asked what you had been doing since you said the DWBIA did nothing and accomplished nothing and was a failure.
Its funny how people can dish it out something fierce but they get so damn sensitive when confronted with facts.
P.S. You also wrongly accused myself and the DWBIA of pandering to bars, turning downtwon into a toilet. Then remained silent when I had given you evidence that the exact opposite was true
But no, your way above personal attacks
A great point has been made and that is we could only name two men’s shops downtown. A bit pricey perhaps but two places nonetheless. Shouldn’t we be able to have a larger retail sector than that? Cripes Stratford has a bigger downtown, Chatham has a bigger downtown interms of mixed retail.
I think all we are saying is that we live this life every single day and the amenities we need just are not there. We just want to work with the DWBIA to make the downtown successful for business owners and the residence. A happy resident will only bring more business and more people to the core do you not agree? Let’s work together to make it beneficail for both because one cannot exist without the other…unless it’s just bars : )
Personal issues aside - the original premise about the almost complete absence of amenities downtown stands. I know you want to think otherwise Mark, but you haven’t even began to prove otherwise, save for a few desperate examples, most of which did not veer far from the “entertainment district” theme that has dominated your vision of what downtown should be like. If you want downtown to be a “neighbourhood” with “people” in it, you’ll have to move beyond those limited borders.
While I STRONGLY respect your passion and all the work you’ve done for downtown, I think your unbridled enthusiasm has clouded your perception of the reality of what downtown has gradually become. Well, the average resident wants - and needs - more than bars and money marts, or a so-called “entertainment district” for that matter. If you want to ram it down our throats that everything is just fine the way it is because Mark says so and that everyone should just accept the current dismal status of the retail and service sectors downtown, then don’t hold your breath waiting for the huge population influx that is expected to be its savior. The people have already spoken - and the all but total abandonment of downtown as a shopping district says it all. It actually scares me when I see people like you saying “everything’s OK, you can get anything downtown” because it tells me you’ve given up on a truly liveable downtown.
If you REALLY care about downtown - and I know damn well you do in your own way - stop being a cheerleader for the status quo when it comes to retail and service, Mark. Treat the needs of the potential residents equal to the needs of your “entertainment” patrons. As an example, you wouldn’t tell a bar goer that south Windsor is a “great bar district” just because there’s a Chinese food restaurant with an LLBO licence on Grand Marais, would you? That’s how ridiculous you sound when you say downtown has a wide range of amenities just because a variety store or gas station happened to pick up the slack and put a multibit driver on a hook behind the counter.
I never said to accept the status quo, if I wanted to accept the status quo, I wouldn’t work nearly as hard as I do.
I never said everything is OK, If everything was OK this website wouldnt exist.
However, the solution starts with people not government
Look at this book for example on http://www.pps.org/info/products/Books_Videos/great_neighborhood_book
The Great Neighborhood Book explains how any community can be improved and enlivened, not by vast infusions of cash, not by government, but by the people who live there. Through real-life stories, this book addresses such challenges as traffic control, crime, comfort and safety, and developing economic vitality. Offering compelling evidence of how people in communities have enhanced their own neighborhoods through “Placemaking” — the PPS term for the process of transforming public space — this exciting guide offers inspiring real-life examples that show the magic that happens when individuals take small steps, and motivate others to make change. It joins The Social Life of Small Urban Spaces and How To Turn a Place Around in the PPS library of publications that explore a place-based approach to improving neighborhoods.
This book is a must-read not only for neighborhood
What I don’t understand is why people think that loving Downtown and wanting it to be way better are somehow opposing ideas when I think that one is predicated on the other
Another point is that downtown isn’t good enough. I’m not arguing that, I’m just saying its the best that Windsor has to offer.
If you think that Windsor’s best isn’t good enough, I am not and have never argued that point.
“If you think that Windsor’s best isn’t good enough…”
Well aren’t you cheeky!
Downtown is the best Windsor has to offer? That is pure comedy. If it was the best Windsor had to offer, people would be moving there, not away - as you did. Business would be thriving, not dying a slow death (save for those clinging stubbornly to the alcohol-driven industry there). Is a plague of vacancies your idea of “the best Windsor has to offer”? Strange.
In terms of safety, amenities, quality of life, right across the board, downtown is among the worst places in Windsor for someone to actually *live*. And it’s getting worse by the day as each proper business closes or moves out to sprawlsville to service folks like yourself.
The best Windsor has to offer? At the moment I can think of at least a half dozen districts within the city interior that can and do service its residents far better than downtown. That includes my own neighbourhood that has more *useful* walkable amenities in a six square block area than downtown has from stern to bow. Oh but you’re right, we don’t have 100 different places here to get shit-faced at. That’s what people are looking for when they want a “neighbourhood” to live in, huh?
Mark, I believe the only thing residents are opposed to are more bars. We want more retail business and are willing to shop there. We love the mix of restaurants, we love some of the bars but we are sorely lacking in other amenities that have been mentioned above.
Again let’s work together, not against one another as no one will win. If you will not listen to the residents in the area then all hope is lost because it will be us that makes or breaks a future downtown.
I can agree to that Dave. But it seems like this “entertainment district” thing is the be-all and end-all for Mark. People need a farmer’s market, people need a butcher shop, a deli, a bakery. People need laundry detergent, drywall screws, pea soup, underwear, running shoes, cameras, paint, clothespins, and so on. If we had half the mix of retail/service that already exists in terms of bars and taverns, downtown would not only be the best Windsor has to offer, it would be one of the best downtowns in Ontario.
Why would you think that the entertainment district is a be all and end all. It is but one component of every successful downtown and no more than that. I will not be ashamed of that segment of our downtown. I will be proud of it and will tout it as an integral part of Avenue South District (only)
No one wants more bars but I would like to see the ones we have evolve. When I was DWBIA chair and spokesman
I publically announced the DWBIA and My support for any restrictions on bar capacity and how many bars per bldg per floor.
I only opposed the zoning restrictions that only allow nightclubs on Ouellette avenue as I worried that this would bring more nightclubs to Ouellette. The new zoning laws dictate that new nightclubs can only open downtown and thats just plain wrong.
I support anything that stops the intensification of the
Yeah, I want the exact same stuff you want, but it starts with people believing in our downtown, not tearing it a new a**hole
And as to this point
“At the moment I can think of at least a half dozen districts within the city interior that can and do service its residents far better than downtown”
I cannot think of one district in Windsor that can do or service its residents WITHOUT A CAR. Not one that has anywhere near the amenitites of downtown. Call me cheeky all you want but I’m categorically right. Its not even close and its indisputable once you start listing the amenities.
I’ll put downtown’s amenities up against any other district any day of the week.
You know, its absurd to say that because I don’t attack bars that they are my end all be all.
Remember my restaurants are also bars, (Rock And roll Oishii thursday’s, Live Music Saturday’s at Chanoso’s) Those are evolved bars. They are open until 2 and I’m damn proud of them. If you think that those two nights of those two places are are not bars I dont know what to tell you. I just like to think they’r good bars.
However you think of them they do not detract one bit from our downtown.
Within a one mile walk I can: buy groceries, go to 2 Timmies, bars, restaruants, a hardware store, a Mac’s Milk, hair stylist, pet food specialty store, laundry mat and soon a magnificent $65 million arena complex.
I live in Little River Acres if I walk north to Wyandotte or west to Lauzon I get all that. Also within my one mile radius is Tecumseh Mall and Rona.
For some reason the east side of the city has held onto its retail mix. Wyandotte East from Pillette to Little River has a variety of stores and amenities. It’s also serviced by one of the most reliable Transit Windsor routes, the Crosstown 2.
James, nice list.
Mind if I do mine too?
From the end of my block, I can actually see - not just walk to - but SEE:
- Well stocked mini Grocery with gyro/burger/sub takeaway, gas bar
- Two churches (with a Catholic one being a few blocks further)
- Major hospital (with Tim Horton’s kioske inside, har har)
- Dollar Store
- Gaming Store (Hugin & Munin)
- Pet Food Store
- Schwab’s Deli-Meat, which includes modest grocer section
- Sunshine Bakery (possibly Windsor’s largest)
- Library branch
- Vacuum Cleaner repair shop
- Major bank
- Dry Cleaner
- Another bakery slash luncheon place (Pastry Table)
- A woman’s imported/specialty clothing store
- One of Windsor’s oldest Computer stores, Future Computer
- Balkan Bakery / ethnic grocer (best kept secret in the ‘hood)
- Mac’s Milk as well as an indy variety store
- Two of Windsor’s major Italian eateries
- Bus Stop on corner, on the 1C route, which gets me downtown
- and for when I die, a funeral home
Now…keep in mind this is ONLY the stuff I can see looking up and down Tecumseh from the intersection that I could think of off the top of my head as having patronized regularly.
(OK, I’ve never been in that imported women’s clothing place, I admit it.)
If I made a complete list going 1km each way it would be obscenely long, and would even include a bar or two. [giddy] Add in bike-able and/or short-drive distance goodies on Ottawa street, and you have living in Walkerville / South Walkerville blowing the proverbial doors off downtown as well.
I could even make a similar case for living in old south windsor… my retired folks live out that way; and even with N&D long gone, Yorktown Plaza has a full range of useful amenities. You see retired folks walking in/out of there all day long, especially after the condo building and new Shopper’s Drug Mart came around.
No I don’t think Chanoso’s detracts one bit from downtown. Is that what this is all about, Mark?
“Why would you think that the entertainment district is a be all and end all.”
I don’t think that, *you* do, by using it again and again as the yardstick when trying to prove downtown has amenities, always conveniently avoiding the reality of the absence of proper amenities people actually need before they go out for the evening to get drunk.
Truth: The entertainment component of downtown makes it a great place to VISIT for the evening……..then LEAVE.
If you want to talk about a place to *live*, then let’s talk about that, shall we?
“Remember my restaurants are also bars, (Rock And roll Oishii thursday’s, Live Music Saturday’s at Chanoso’s) Those are evolved bars. They are open until 2 and I’m damn proud of them”
And there you go again. Look at the great band that’s playing at Chanoso’s next weekend! This isn’t about Chanoso’s. If anything Chanoso’s is one of the few respectable components of downtown’s night life.
Can we get back to what the residents need to LIVE please? It is already established and agreed upon that downtown has one hell of a nightlife. MMMkay?
How about the average joe that needs a roast to serve his family? Or pet food? Or any other basic need. I can walk down the street and get that. Residents of Walkerville can get it at the Market Square (along with a million other food items). Ditto for Olde Riverside. Even the near east side (ie. Howard/Tecumseh). But downtown…. where is your butcher shop? Where is your bakery? Where is your farmers market? Where is your dept. store? You say you have a list of amenities; well stop bullshitting around and pony up!!
“Yeah, I want the exact same stuff you want, but it starts with people believing in our downtown, not tearing it a new a**hole”
People once believed in a downtown. You just have to go back to an earlier time to see that. But downtown turned its back on Windsor and slowly devolved into a bar district greedily catering to American teens primarily interested in our lower drinking age doubly fueld by their strong u.s. dollar. Downtown paid dearly for taking that route and the by-product of the rowdyism and crime slowly chased away almost everything and everyone else, turning downtown into what it is today - a retail wasteland.
“I cannot think of one district in Windsor that can do or service its residents WITHOUT A CAR. Not one that has anywhere near the amenitites of downtown. Call me cheeky all you want but I’m categorically right. Its not even close and its indisputable once you start listing the amenities.”
Yes, you are cheeky…..and categorically wrong. Everyone has been trying to tell you that. You don’t WANT to think of another district that services its residents better. The truth is, there are many.
But how can you say downtown has “more” when it has almost nothing to begin with (except for the aforementioned “entertainment” industry)? It has almost nothing to sustain a RESIDENT’s way of life. I can get almost everything I need from where I live without driving. If I lived downtown, I would have to drive out of the district every time I needed the basic necessities of life. And by using “walkability” as a reason to live downtown is just digging yourself an even deeper hole.
Andrew is right, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. It’s a sport for you, not a chance to learn anything. Well go ahead and keep trying to dictate that what Windsor needs downtown is satisfied already, so long as it fits in with your vision of how things should be for the “entertainment” lobby. When you finally get sick and tired of watching residents and retailers leaving and downtown is finally a full scale ghetto, then maybe you’ll start to listen to the people. I just hope it isn’t too late by then.
I’m not arguing for sport, I am correcting the statements that I truly believe are wrong.
I want more amenities downtown, I think the way to attract them is to put the residents there first. We tried a small limited farmers market and no one came. We need more residents that want one before we can support one.
Amenities are not just neighborhood support businesses which will be perfect for the West Village District provided that the after hours clubs on this street are closed. Thats one of the reasons for districting, It shows this type of residential support retailer that we have earmarked a place just for them where we can create a cluster of them that will help them support each other.
Amenities are parks and arts etc… I think we have to acknowledge the amenities we do have so that we can attract some residents based on those particular ones. Those residents in turn will be the missing link to the amenities that you speak of.
I listen to you, but when you say that the DWBIA panders to Bars, when you say that the DWBIA cares only about the entertainment sector. I will always remind you that you are wrong and state the facts
The problem is that I am not wrong. Neither is Dave. Neither is Andrew. Neither are the hundreds of residents that have comprised the residential bleed you are bemoaning. Neither are the dozens of retail and services that have left downtown. When will you open your eyes?
You are the one who is wrong. You are not stating facts. You are stating opinions then refusing to back up with any solid evidence. When backed up against a wall, you dance around and try to redefine and remold the criteria that makes a district liveable so it happens to coincide with the current state of downtown. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. People are going to look around them and see the wasteland and walk away. They aren’t wearing the rosy glasses.
But OK we’ll pretend for the moment that this is really Boscoville and residents don’t need silly things like food on their table, shoes on their feet, clothes on their back, safe streets, quiet evenings, etc. We’ll pretend that it’s all about Arts and Parks.
For Arts, would you be talking about the Capitol theatre downtown which closed amidst great controversy, and our current poor state of funding of the arts by the city, contrasted with the Theatre Windsor group which is viable, open, and fully operational at the Market Square in Walkerville soley by means of private enterprise and volunteers? All the while, the lawyers are still fighting over the Capitol. Results talk. Bullshit walks.
Parks? Granted you have the uninterupted parkland along the riverfront, a rare and remarkable achievement for our city leaders that took decades, but every neighbourhood in Windsor has parks, including mine. Some of our city’s parks are equally or more remarkable, such as Jackson Park, Ojibway.
Stick with the facts and start listening to reason, Mark. You still can’t escape the plain fact that downtown needs a proper mix of retail and services. In the absence of that, you won’t see residents OR daytime shoppers for that matter either. As always, the night time will be the right time. Stay asleep at the switch and wait for the thud. I’m done.
I’d like to weigh in if I could.
Everyone’s gettin’ pretty worked up.
In Windsor/Essex I think we can all agree that Windsor is the main centre of economic and political activity. Windsor is the main centre for the arts and cultural events.
To best serve the region Downtown Windsor needs to be a vibrant and complete district. It must count among its business tennants the biggest and most influential. It must have a complete community of residents, workers and visitors.
It must be a neighbourhood and a destination. It must serve everyone’s needs.
When we met with Chris Turner, I asked him about some of the area’s in downtown Calgary that I remembered from my short time there. I asked about Electric Avenue. This was a strip of bars and clubs as long as Ouellette’s. He said it has shrunk considerably, now its about a block long. Boom times there have made other types of businesses more desireable. I also asked about the 2nd Avenue stroll. This was a couple of blocks right downtown where a gent could get himself some companionship. Gone, done - boom times have caused this trade to move out.
Windsor needs to rejuvinate its local economy. Stop speculation on prime real-estate so that the owners are encouraged to put profitable, long-term businesses in their properties. Restructure the property taxes to limit sprawl and encourage in fill. Spend on transit and bike racks. Stop denying there are problems and identify and pose solutions. Stop arguing. Everyone’s input is valuable and if looked at by a third party could be sorted and prioritized into a plan.
I think the condition of our downtown today is the result of many factors, going way back. My family lost our business in the recession in the early eighties. My parents cite - high taxes, the street scaping and loss of on street parking, the development of the mall and suburban shopping and competition from national chains.
Economically this region, this continent has not bottomed out yet. It’s going to get worse for the rest of Canada before too long. What we can do in Windsor is pressure our leaders to stop operating as if everything is O.K. and will go back to normal. Normal is over. We are seeing the beginning of peak oil. Climate change is having greater effects on our local weather. And Global corporations and their economies of scale look like they are going to be about as long-lived as Soviet Communism.
Its time to change how we think about everything. We need to recognize the paradigm shift and get ahead of it so that our region can take advantage of being on the leading edge.
I hope that some of our readers are the type that see the oportunities that living locally will bring and have the means to invest in new jobs and initatives that work at the local/regional level.
Somewhere in there I think I had a point.
MArk, again I will applaud your efforts and I agree that your businesses add to downtown and not detract from them. You are a responsible businessman who understands that evolving is a key part to survival in the cruel world of restauranteurs.
I don’t think anyone is trying to tear the downtown a new a**hole. What we are trying to do is make the DWBIA look in the mirror and see what it really is. Though it is hard to do, sometimes we need to look at ourselves in a different light in order to see what we try not to, warts and all. That is the only way we can progress as a people and a society. We are asking for more amenities not only so that we can shop there but so that we can attract more people and make it the place we know downtown can be. Do you not agree with that assessment?
James, I agree to your post. I truly believe the oppressive taxes in downtown are stifling any growth it could possibly have which is why so many of our businesses have left for St. Clair Beach. A friend of mine owns a business in Walkerville and his taxes are almost the same as that of a similar business in downtown Toronto! Imagine that! He looked into downtown but it was impossible for him to pay those types of taxes that are downtown plus the outrageous rent that was being asked.
The city will whine that it is MPAC but Windsor sets the mill rate. Again I ask, where in the hell are the incentives? Other cities do it so whynot Windsor? Because they didn’t ned it because of all the kiddy bars downtown. That is another reason why rents are/were so high. The owners knew that another person would come in with yet another bar that would last a year or two and thenanotehr bar would take it’s place.
Mark, I remember you wanting a moratorium on bars and for that I thank you. I also agree that we can have an entertainment district but truthfully that is the only real district the downtown has.
Let’s now focus the downtown on getting that urban village full of people iwth disposable incomes and let us let any post secondary shool find alternate sites to build on downtown. Those schools will need little room for either the dramatic arts program or the Law school. Let us have them build it on the many vacant lots downtown but this isthe only kick at the can that we can actually build A TRUE village on the city centre west lands. We cannot add schools, houses and mixed retail on those lands as there is not enough room. Let’s build the houses and mixed retial and let’s build the schools on other sites in the downtown area. A win/win for everyone do you not agree?
Now let’s go after the city and get them to do it. No more damn stalling, no more study after study…just do it already! Let’s work together to get the downtown we all want to be a part of and live in.
Wow. You go away for a few days and those mice will surely play, won’t they!
Reading through the 65 posts that this article has atracted (always setting records, aren’t you, Mark
makes me incredibly happy that there is this many people who are passionate about downtown revitalization. Everyone’s got excellent ideas and comments that we really need to put to some constructive use - hopefully at James’ downtown Workshop on the 22nd.
One thing I think is causing some of the disturbance is that Mark hasn’t put forward his viewpoints well enough, as people are taking him to task about priorities and arguing for the same things that Mark argued to me when he joined the exclusive ranks of SD writers. Mark may not have voiced his concerns about attracting and retaining a larger residential component downtown, but I know that this is a priority for him. One of his initial ideas when he came onboard was to use SD as a vehicle to establish a downtown residents association to give a political voice to a marginalized group that the DWBIA can’t speak for, and will get the ear of council a lot easier than yammering individuals. I know that this is a big priority for him, as he knows that a fulfilling life downtown is the key to breathing life into our downtown.
So, if you were hired as the new Executive Director (which I know they are in the process of hiring, so maybe that person will read this website and take your comments into consideration) of the DWBIA, what would be your priorities in revitalizing our core? What concrete steps would you take to “attract and retain” residents into the Downtown?
Me? As stated, getting people onto the streets should be the number one priority. Doing that through residential development would be high on the list, and to get people to locate downtown (whether they be business owners or residents), they need amenities that would support their daily needs. They would need safe and clean streets. They would need some financial incentives as they are being asked to “do without” many of the “perks” that the sub-urbs has to offer. The urban village will provide all that and more, so moving forward on that file should be tops on the list. Yet, if the urban village was constructed, wouldn’t it be an island in the middle of a desert if the rest of the downtown remained the same?
The mixed-use zoning and developer incentives that are being used to lure developers to build our urban village should be expanded to the entire boundaries of the DWBIA. The BIA has some financial incentives in place to entice business owners to spruce up their buildings, but the city must step up to the plate with some tax incentives that would make our downtown that much more appealing to business owners and residents.
City council MUST make this a priority in lieu of continuing the downward spiral that is sub-urban sprawl. The business case must be made and sold to each councillor that a vibrant and livable downtown MAKES MORE FINANCIAL SENSE than duplicating this incredibly expensive infrastructure elsewhere. Yes, this is called “Lobbying”, folks!
And we must be educating our future city councillors as I am pretty sure there is going to be a major shake-up at city hall in November, 2010.
We’re all on the same page, folks, and we’re making some progress. Let’s not lose this focus or the energy
Its not only that, people think that the DWBIA and my promotion of downtown which is our reason d’etre, is somehow blinded us to downtown’s current conditions.
You don’t need to tell us what downtown is like, we are here everyday.
Right now residents need to organize. When they try to sneak, (and yes I am using that term) the 3am bylaw before council again. you need to voice your concern that the DWBIA and residents have both been excluded from the process.
I can tell you what the plan is right now. Administration plans to try to lump in enough businesses into the 3am classification to try to divide us and make us fight each other while they smirk and laugh at us
Call your councillor and ask them why the DWBIA or residents are not included in the process before another flawed bylaw or report comes before council instead of after
Councillors have decided not to listen to myself or the DWBIA on this issue, the only difference between the council meeting where they approved it vs the one where they rejected it was the amount of relatives and friends of the last shooting victim in the council chambers
Residents matter to council far more than my voice or the voice of the DWBIA. If the residents do not work arm in arm with the DWBIA, we will lose this opportunity to make change
P.S. I don’t have the time to list all of the downtown amenities. YOu might have more retail in your area but that is but one of many amenities that downtown has an advantage on. You compare the walkerville theater to the capital as if you are somehow not aware of the Chrysler theater, the palace theater and so man other venues downtown has.
You can find a list of downtown amenities on the downtown.ca website
They include churches, the city’s best park, Charles clark square with its new chess table, pharmacies, doctors, a hospital, several dollar stores, every major bank and financial institution, book stores, the main library, the main art gallery in addition to several other small galleries.
Yeah, Downtown needs groceries and more clothing stores. Personally I’d like to see an urban Winners store, sobeys express or Canadian Tire
A city that never sleeps! I found this blog posting
http://americancity.org/updates/blog/2008/24-hour-cities/
“24 HOUR CITIES: SENSIBLE OR SUPERFLUOUS?
Posted on Wednesday, February 27th, 2008 by Hayley Richardson
The concept of 24 hours holds a special place in the popular imagination of Americans. It evokes a sense of urgency and a sense of romance: late night diners, watching the sunrise, saving the world. But the phrase is particularly relevant, and particularly overused, when it comes to cities.
Lewis Mumford wrote in The Culture of Cities that “through its complex orchestration of time and space, no less than through the social division of labor, life in the city takes on a the character of a symphony.” By essence of their being, Cities have the capability of suspending time. They can become postmodern playgrounds, where anything could and should happen, especially after midnight.
Given the increasing proclivity towards convenience culture, it comes as no surprise that cities often attempt to market themselves as 24 hour centers. Cities as diverse as Buenos Aires, Edinborough, Los Angeles and Macau all sing the praises of their 24 hour vibrancy in an attempt to seduce tourists. Understandable: One of the indictements most frequently made against Philly is that it’s NOT a 24 hour city. Indeed, a late-night walk along Market St. yields very little in the way of entertainment, the CD shops and restaurants boarded up. It’s eerie, post-apocalyptic, even.
But this leaves me to wonder, how many cities are actually true “24 hour centers”, and how economically effective is this strategy? Do the benefits outweigh the costs? Should the Next American City aim to be a 24 hour one?…..”
and..”Mostly, they’re drinking. According to the Institute for Alcohol Studies, “Drinking-based leisure now dominates the nightlife of our urban centers, and its expansion has become the gauge of post-industrial prosperity.” The permitting process in most cities results in a late night scene that is dominated by fast food restaurants and bars, not by museums and libraries.
And along with alcohol comes noise.”
and…”And there’s never been a clear link made between a city’s nighttime economy, and its prosperity. Some of the most popular tourist destinations in the country have among the earliest bar closing times of all major cities. Los Angeles, Washington, D.C., San Francisco and Detroit bar owners, for example, are required by law to stop serving alcohol as early as 2 a.m. Certainly there’s revenue to be generated by late night permitting, or late night service, but just how much isn’t clear. However, a study conducted by New York City-based Simmons Market Research demonstrates that perhaps the demand for all-night cities isn’t quite what you would think. When 21,000 adults were asked their whereabouts for a 24-hour period, just 1 in 100 Americans (1.14 percent) reported being at either a restaurant, bar, pub or cafe at any time between 12 a.m. and 3:59 a.m.”
I live downtown and on a warm spring night on the weekend the noise does get out of hand after 2:00 pm until four. But I really don’t have any suggestions on how to best reduce this to accommodate everybody.
I posted the above just say we aren’t alone with this sort of problem and we ain’t anywhere near the cities sited above.